Modern Black Metal (and its factionalism)

[necroodin]

This thread is about 5 years too late.

[Metalfreak]

I'm not saying I won't date a girl who isn't into metal...that would be quite stupid IMO. Music taste isn't that important a quality. But if I find out someone is into good music it automatically makes him/her more awesome, so of course I would like to find a girl into music about killing goats and eating babies.

not to toot my own horn but metal was a huge factor in my boyfriend's interest in me and vice-versa! He loves it that we can sing along to Cannibal Corspe together or whatever.

Anyways, I don't really have any rigid preferences when it comes to black metal. I like most of it. I like that some bands throw in orchestras (even Dimmu...shoot me) or flutes like Lord Belial. Variety is good I think...since I don't listen to much outside of metal (just not my preference) I gotta find some variety within metal and I think black metal does a good job of just that.

[DeathfareDevil]

This thread is about 5 years too late.

This board is about five years too late. But being metalheads, we're a nostalgic bunch.

This message brought to you by Jolt Cola, Horizon cigarettes, and the makers of Zork.

[Knucklehead]

This message brought to you by ... the makers of Zork.

Wow. There's a blast from the past.

[anathematized_one]

I am not going to bother reading this thread, because I know there is a 98% chance that a metal fight will break out. I'm just going to give my thoughts on the whole thing and be done with it.

I hate that kvlt lo-fi raw stuff. People like to say, "oh, black metal isn't supposed to be likable."

Where did this ideology come from? Alright, no other form of metal feels that way. All other genres of metal have evolved and actually sought to be more technical, have better recording quality, and better written music. They try to say, "the founding fathers of black metal wanted it that way, bla bla bla." I can't tell you how many countless interviews I've seen where these "founding fathers" have said they weren't Satanic, and didn't give a fuck about being Satanic. They admit that using the horrible production quality was a gimmick. They actually admit that they only did it for the kvlt points. In a way, that is being more poser than writing black metal that isn't lo-fi and raw. These people I'm talking about are from the first second wave black metal bands, like Darkthrone, Mayhem, etc.. A lot of people I know don't consider bands like Venom and Mercyful Fate to be black metal. Well Venom was definitely more than just speed metal. If you really want to get that anal about, "founding fathers," technically, nothing is black metal unless it sounds like Bathory, Mercyful Fate, or Venom. But that being aside, when in the fuck did ANY of the first or second wave "founding fathers" write a God damn rule book saying that black metal had to sound like pure ass?

If you consider bands like Venom and so forth to be at least in part black metal, like I do, they got better with time. Better composition, better recording quality, so on and so forth.

Alright another point I'd like to make. Honestly, what is wrong with evolving and making clear, decipherable music? Who gives a fuck if other people like the same thing you like? Really, why does it matter?

I prefer black metal bands more like Enochian Crescent, Watain, Dissection, Vinerland, etc.. Now I don't like Dimmu, with the exception of Stormblåst and some songs from Enthroned Darkness Triumphant.

Honestly, the whole "kvlt" thing doesn't make any logical sense to me whatsoever.

Sorry if my post is tl;dr. Not sorry if it offended you, or you disagree with me.

[Kurt]

I'm interested in how Satanism = kvlt and lo-fi.

[KunikoS Rayne]

This topic has strayed so far from it's original point.

[DeathfareDevil]

I am not going to bother reading this thread, because I know there is a 98% chance that a metal fight will break out.

Nah, this has been a civil discussion, and I have no reason to believe that'll change. If I'd wanted a flaming troll war, I would've posed my questions at ANUS or DarkLyrics.

I hate that kvlt lo-fi raw stuff. People like to say, "oh, black metal isn't supposed to be likable."

Where did this ideology come from? Alright, no other form of metal feels that way. All other genres of metal have evolved and actually sought to be more technical, have better recording quality, and better written music. They try to say, "the founding fathers of black metal wanted it that way, bla bla bla." I can't tell you how many countless interviews I've seen where these "founding fathers" have said they weren't Satanic, and didn't give a fuck about being Satanic. They admit that using the horrible production quality was a gimmick. They actually admit that they only did it for the kvlt points. In a way, that is being more poser than writing black metal that isn't lo-fi and raw. These people I'm talking about are from the first second wave black metal bands, like Darkthrone, Mayhem, etc.. A lot of people I know don't consider bands like Venom and Mercyful Fate to be black metal. Well Venom was definitely more than just speed metal. If you really want to get that anal about, "founding fathers," technically, nothing is black metal unless it sounds like Bathory, Mercyful Fate, or Venom. But that being aside, when in the fuck did ANY of the first or second wave "founding fathers" write a God damn rule book saying that black metal had to sound like pure ass?

If you consider bands like Venom and so forth to be at least in part black metal, like I do, they got better with time. Better composition, better recording quality, so on and so forth.

Alright another point I'd like to make. Honestly, what is wrong with evolving and making clear, decipherable music? Who gives a fuck if other people like the same thing you like? Really, why does it matter?

I prefer black metal bands more like Enochian Crescent, Watain, Dissection, Vinerland, etc.. Now I don't like Dimmu, with the exception of Stormblåst and some songs from Enthroned Darkness Triumphant.

Honestly, the whole "kvlt" thing doesn't make any logical sense to me whatsoever.

Sorry if my post is tl;dr. Not sorry if it offended you, or you disagree with me.

As for your other points, I'll offer up my two cents.

The use of lo-fi recording techniques indeed was a gimmick, one designed, as you said, to target a limited audience, to keep away the "trendy" death metallers of the time ( ludicrous as that now sounds). In fact black metal is one of the few styles of music where each successive generation seems to rebel against its predecessor (maybe this is where the jazz comparisions originated). Darkthrone, Immortal, Borknagar, and Emperor (among others, I'm sure) became, in their second incarnations, darker, colder, and more raw. And while most of these musicians roll their eyes at those past recordings, this doesn't affect the value of the discographies.

Of course I can't divine why there became such a demarcation between those seeking progression and those who hold to orthodoxies possibly not even intended by the originators. That's why I wrote this post, I guess.

Actually the more I think about this, the more comparisons I'm making with organized religion. A philosophy that began as a relatively pragmatic means for group indentity became metaphysical dogma. Now there's a richness of irony.

[DeathfareDevil]

This topic has strayed so far from it's original point.

Not at all! I'm enjoying it, anyway. I wanted a detailed and passionate discussion about black metal preferences and that's exactly what's unfolding.

[Brian]

If you really want to get that anal about, "founding fathers," technically, nothing is black metal unless it sounds like Bathory, Mercyful Fate, or Venom.

I'm sorry but that is the dumbest argument anybody could have possibly come up with. Using that logic, Streetlight Manifesto isn't ska because they don't sound like Toots and the Maytals, Necrophagist isn't death metal because they don't sound like Possessed, and Sigur Ros isn't post-rock because they don't sound like Talk Talk.

But that being aside, when in the fuck did ANY of the first or second wave "founding fathers" write a God damn rule book saying that black metal had to sound like pure ass?

Lo-fi isn't for everybody. Most people wouldn't find it enjoyable if they had no prior experience with metal, or black metal in particular. But who is claiming that bands who have lo-fi recordings today are simply doing it to copy the early 90's Scandinavian bands? Maybe it was a gimmick for them. But maybe, just maybe, some listeners actually ENJOYED this type of sound. Maybe they're making lo-fi music today because it's the actual type of music they LIKE, and not just to gain kvlt points. Who are you, I, or anybody else to tell somebody their music isn't for personal satisfaction but rather just to look cool in a niche scene?

[MikeLindgren]

My fiance and I met because I was filling in on bass for a local metal band. Now all we listen to is country, and it's aaaaalllllll goooooooood!

I don't get the Dimmu bashing. If I want "real deal" black metal, I'll play a bunch of minor thirds, and record my production inside of a tin can. It will only be released on cassette, and the album liner can have no colour in it, whatsoever.

Recently, metal has turned into a joke. It's second only to rap as the most played-out, cannibilistic genre around.

Somebody needs to invent some new subgenre of metal.

[Blarg!]

I am not going to bother reading this thread, because I know there is a 98% chance that a metal fight will break out. I'm just going to give my thoughts on the whole thing and be done with it.

I hate that kvlt lo-fi raw stuff. People like to say, "oh, black metal isn't supposed to be likable."

Where did this ideology come from? Alright, no other form of metal feels that way. All other genres of metal have evolved and actually sought to be more technical, have better recording quality, and better written music. They try to say, "the founding fathers of black metal wanted it that way, bla bla bla." I can't tell you how many countless interviews I've seen where these "founding fathers" have said they weren't Satanic, and didn't give a fuck about being Satanic. They admit that using the horrible production quality was a gimmick. They actually admit that they only did it for the kvlt points. In a way, that is being more poser than writing black metal that isn't lo-fi and raw. These people I'm t
alking about are from the first second wave black metal bands, like Darkthrone, Mayhem, etc.. A lot of people I know don't consider bands like Venom and Mercyful Fate to be black metal. Well Venom was definitely more than just speed metal. If you really want to get that anal about, "founding fathers," technically, nothing is black metal unless it sounds like Bathory, Mercyful Fate, or Venom. But that being aside, when in the fuck did ANY of the first or second wave "founding fathers" write a God damn rule book saying that black metal had to sound like pure ass?

If you consider bands like Venom and so forth to be at least in part black metal, like I do, they got better with time. Better composition, better recording quality, so on and so forth.

Alright another point I'd like to make. Honestly, what is wrong with evolving and making clear, decipherable music? Who gives a fuck if other people like the same thing you like? Really, why does it matter?

I prefer black metal bands more like Enochian Crescent, Watain, Dissection, Vinerland, etc.. Now I don't like Dimmu, with the exception of Stormblåst and some songs from Enthroned Darkness Triumphant.

Honestly, the whole "kvlt" thing doesn't make any logical sense to me whatsoever.

Sorry if my post is tl;dr. Not sorry if it offended you, or you disagree with me.

I wonder when people will start educating themselfs on a topic before writing a lengthy opinion about it.

[Blarg!]

I am not going to bother reading this thread, because I know there is a 98% chance that a metal fight will break out.

Nah, this has been a civil discussion, and I have no reason to believe that'll change. If I'd wanted a flaming troll war, I would've posed my questions at ANUS or DarkLyrics.

I hate that kvlt lo-fi raw stuff. People like to say, "oh, black metal isn't supposed to be likable."

Where did this ideology come from? Alright, no other form of metal feels that way. All other genres of metal have evolved and actually sought to be more technical, have better recording quality, and better written music. They try to say, "the founding fathers of black metal wanted it that way, bla bla bla." I can't tell you how many countless interviews I've seen where these "founding fathers" have said they weren't Satanic, and didn't give a fuck about being Satanic. They admit that using the horrible production quality was a gimmick. They actually admit that they only did it for the kvlt points. In a way, that is being more poser than writing black metal that isn't lo-fi and raw. These people I'm talking about are from the first second wave black metal bands, like Darkthrone, Mayhem, etc.. A lot of people I know don't consider bands like Venom and Mercyful Fate to be black metal. Well Venom was definitely more than just speed metal. If you really want to get that anal about, "founding fathers," technically, nothing is black metal unless it sounds like Bathory, Mercyful Fate, or Venom. But that being aside, when in the fuck did ANY of the first or second wave "founding fathers" write a God damn rule book saying that black metal had to sound like pure ass?

If you consider bands like Venom and so forth to be at least in part black metal, like I do, they got better with time. Better composition, better recording quality, so on and so forth.

Alright another point I'd like to make. Honestly, what is wrong with evolving and making clear, decipherable music? Who gives a fuck if other people like the same thing you like? Really, why does it matter?

I prefer black metal bands more like Enochian Crescent, Watain, Dissection, Vinerland, etc.. Now I don't like Dimmu, with the exception of Stormblåst and some songs from Enthroned Darkness Triumphant.

Honestly, the whole "kvlt" thing doesn't make any logical sense to me whatsoever.

Sorry if my post is tl;dr. Not sorry if it offended you, or you disagree with me.

As for your other points, I'll offer up my two cents.

The use of lo-fi recording techniques indeed was a gimmick, one designed, as you said, to target a limited audience, to keep away the "trendy" death metallers of the time ( ludicrous as that now sounds). In fact black metal is one of the few styles of music where each successive generation seems to rebel against its predecessor (maybe this is where the jazz comparisions originated). Darkthrone, Immortal, Borknagar, and Emperor (among others, I'm sure) became, in their second incarnations, darker, colder, and more raw. And while most of these musicians roll their eyes at those past recordings, this doesn't affect the value of the discographies.

Of course I can't divine why there became such a demarcation between those seeking progression and those who hold to orthodoxies possibly not even intended by the originators. That's why I wrote this post, I guess.

Actually the more I think about this, the more comparisons I'm making with organized religion. A philosophy that began as a relatively pragmatic means for group indentity became metaphysical dogma. Now there's a richness of irony.

And I still don't understand how Emperor is raw..I always saw them as going in a more atmospheric and sort of dignified path, in comparison to bands like Darkthrone,ect.
And even Burzum to me sounds very smooth and clean and atmospheric of course.
It seems the most "kvlt" sounding stuff or raw stuff comes from shitty darkthrone-worshiping myspace bands.
Who do nothing but fuck their guitar, claim to have punk rock influence, and perform drums at a beginner level.
That seems like what anathematized's view of Black Metal is, a very stupid mistake.
Some bands take the "raw" or more "leaky basement" sound and use it for atmosphere, other bands have no other option but to have a more raw sound due to lack of better equipment (heh).
But as I said and then deleted, anyone who makes newcomer type assumptions and uneducated opinions is subject to nothing more than jeering continued by ignoring, and really can not be taken seriously.

There is a new (extremely gay) form of Black Metal that incorporates rock-n-roll into it..you all know of it, Darkthrone probably leads this group.
And It seems like people are getting their general idea of Black Metal through that amongst other farce bands, rather than the more atmospheric and overall better music and ideas of the second wave.

keep in mind that the "first wave" as it's called is usually nothing more than thrash metal that people saw as black metal, because it was different than the shitty, trendy and childish culture and music of Death Metal.

[KunikoS Rayne]

That seems like what anathematized's view of Black Metal is, a very stupid mistake.

His opinion is his opinion, and just because you disagree with it, doesn't mean you need to flame him for it.

Show some respect and keep this a civilized debate.

[jswift]

The only good black metal band is Living Colour.