Nov. 13 - SUFFOCATION - Masquerade

[holly]

Point is, what you guys tend to label as a hardcore kid is anything but. I can think of a handful of hardcore kids that I know go to hardcore AND metal shows in the first place, so I really doubt that so many of you could be having so many bad experiences just from a handful of kids.

Blanket labeling is stupid. Just because a band is doing metalcore or something that isn't 100% metal, that doesn't mean that it's hardcore (which is isn't). Hardcore still hasn't strayed that much from the old classics (Black Flag, Minor Threat, Sick of it All, Madball, etc.).

They really need to come up with another name for the "modern" hardcore kids to avoid all of this "blanket labeling" as you called it.

"Modern" hardcore kids still listen to hardcore.
That is my point.
What I'm trying to say is that what a lot of you guys into metal consider to be a "hardcore kid" isn't what a hardcore kid is.
I guess that wasn't clear.

Nah, I wasn't referring to the almost but not quite metal bands...I was talking about bands who I've seen and witnessed this happening. Stuff like The Chariot, Norma Jean, Underoath w/the old singer, Blood Brothers, etc. They might not fit the strictest definition of "hardcore," but there is no denying that their roots are there. I don't know of anyone who would consider them to be metal.

It's like the whole emo argument. Sure, Antioch Arrow, Fugazi, Moss Icon, Rites of Spring, and all those other bands were the "original" emo. But the definition has changed with the times.

No, it's still really not.
It's the same thing as you saying, "well, it's certainly not metal!"
Oh yeah? Why don't you claim it? BECAUSE IT'S NOT METAL.
Why doesn't hardcore claim it? BECAUSE IT'S NOT HARDCORE.

[RichOfSilence]

Point is, what you guys tend to label as a hardcore kid is anything but. I can think of a handful of hardcore kids that I know go to hardcore AND metal shows in the first place, so I really doubt that so many of you could be having so many bad experiences just from a handful of kids.

Blanket labeling is stupid. Just because a band is doing metalcore or something that isn't 100% metal, that doesn't mean that it's hardcore (which is isn't). Hardcore still hasn't strayed that much from the old classics (Black Flag, Minor Threat, Sick of it All, Madball, etc.).

They really need to come up with another name for the "modern" hardcore kids to avoid all of this "blanket labeling" as you called it.

"Modern" hardcore kids still listen to hardcore.
That is my point.
What I'm trying to say is that what a lot of you guys into metal consider to be a "hardcore kid" isn't what a hardcore kid is.
I guess that wasn't clear.

Nah, I wasn't referring to the almost but not quite metal bands...I was talking about bands who I've seen and witnessed this happening. Stuff like The Chariot, Norma Jean, Underoath w/the old singer, Blood Brothers, etc. They might not fit the strictest definition of "hardcore," but there is no denying that their roots are there. I don't know of anyone who would consider them to be metal.

It's like the whole emo argument. Sure, Antioch Arrow, Fugazi, Moss Icon, Rites of Spring, and all those other bands were the "original" emo. But the definition has changed with the times.

Callign that shit hardcore is like calling Korn metal. It just isn't.

[Brian]

Point is, what you guys tend to label as a hardcore kid is anything but. I can think of a handful of hardcore kids that I know go to hardcore AND metal shows in the first place, so I really doubt that so many of you could be having so many bad experiences just from a handful of kids.

Blanket labeling is stupid. Just because a band is doing metalcore or something that isn't 100% metal, that doesn't mean that it's hardcore (which is isn't). Hardcore still hasn't strayed that much from the old classics (Black Flag, Minor Threat, Sick of it All, Madball, etc.).

They really need to come up with another name for the "modern" hardcore kids to avoid all of this "blanket labeling" as you called it.

"Modern" hardcore kids still listen to hardcore.
That is my point.
What I'm trying to say is that what a lot of you guys into metal consider to be a "hardcore kid" isn't what a hardcore kid is.
I guess that wasn't clear.

Nah, I wasn't referring to the almost but not quite metal bands...I was talking about bands who I've seen and witnessed this happening. Stuff like The Chariot, Norma Jean, Underoath w/the old singer, Blood Brothers, etc. They might not fit the strictest definition of "hardcore," but there is no denying that their roots are there. I don't know of anyone who would consider them to be metal.

It's like the whole emo argument. Sure, Antioch Arrow, Fugazi, Moss Icon, Rites of Spring, and all those other bands were the "original" emo. But the definition has changed with the times.

Callign that shit hardcore is like calling Korn metal. It just isn't.

Just out of curiosity, what would it be called?

Hardcore now isn't the same as hardcore 25 years ago. No genre now is the same as it was 25 years ago. If it were, the genre would have remained stagnant and died off. Yes, there are still bands who play the more "traditional" hardcore sound, but the "traditional" sound isn't the only type of hardcore around anymore.

Just look at ska. You look at the first wave, "traditional" era, and you have bands like Bob Marley and the Wailers and Desmond Dekker. Then you look at the third wave and bands like Mighty Mighty Bosstones, Streetlight Manifesto, etc, and really the only thing they have in common is the use of a brass section. The genre has evolved with the times. The same thing has happened with hardcore.

IMO, saying all these bands aren't hardcore because they don't sound like Black Flag is like saying that At the Gates isn't metal because they don't sound like Black Sabbath.

[RichOfSilence]

Point is, what you guys tend to label as a hardcore kid is anything but. I can think of a handful of hardcore kids that I know go to hardcore AND metal shows in the first place, so I really doubt that so many of you could be having so many bad experiences just from a handful of kids.

Blanket labeling is stupid. Just because a band is doing metalcore or something that isn't 100% metal, that doesn't mean that it's hardcore (which is isn't). Hardcore still hasn't strayed that much from the old classics (Black Flag, Minor Threat, Sick of it All, Madball, etc.).

They really need to come up with another name for the "modern" hardcore kids to avoid all of this "blanket labeling" as you called it.

"Modern" hardcore kids still listen to hardcore.
That is my point.
What I'm trying to say is that what a lot of you guys into metal consider to be a "hardcore kid" isn't what a hardcore kid is.
I guess that wasn't clear.

Nah, I wasn't referring to the almost but not quite metal bands...I was talking about bands who I've seen and witnessed this happening. Stuff like The Chariot, Norma Jean, Underoath w/the old singer, Blood Brothers, etc. They might not fit the strictest definition of "hardcore," but there is no denying that their roots are there. I don't know of anyone who would consider them to be metal.

It's like the whole emo argument. Sure, Antioch Arrow, Fugazi, Moss Icon, Rites of Spring, and all those other bands were the "original" emo. But the definition has changed with the times.

Callign that shit hardcore is like calling Korn metal. It just isn't.

Just out of curiosity, what would it be called?

Hardcore now isn't the same as hardcore 25 years ago. No genre now is the same as it was 25 years ago. If it were, the genre would have remained stagnant and died off. Yes, there are still bands who play the more "traditional" hardcore sound, but the "traditional" sound isn't the only type of hardcore around anymore.

Just look at ska. You look at the first wave, "traditional" era, and you have bands like Bob Marley and the Wailers and Desmond Dekker. Then you look at the third wave and bands like Mighty Mighty Bosstones, Streetlight Manifesto, etc, and really the only thing they have in common is the use of a brass section. The genre has evolved with the times. The same thing has happened with hardcore.

IMO, saying all these bands aren't hardcore because they don't sound like Black Flag is like saying that At the Gates isn't metal because they don't sound like Black Sabbath.

Well what would you call Korn? I say pop/hard rock.

Shit like Avenged Sevenfold, Unearth, As I lay Dying, etc etc isn't hardcore. I don't know what to call it, but I would call Unearth and the like metal. Bad metal with breakdowns, but still metal. I think hardcore dudes call that shit metal and metal dudes call it hardcore. haha

Maybe it's time for a new separate genre called "horrible music."

[Brian]

Point is, what you guys tend to label as a hardcore kid is anything but. I can think of a handful of hardcore kids that I know go to hardcore AND metal shows in the first place, so I really doubt that so many of you could be having so many bad experiences just from a handful of kids.

Blanket labeling is stupid. Just because a band is doing metalcore or something that isn't 100% metal, that doesn't mean that it's hardcore (which is isn't). Hardcore still hasn't strayed that much from the old classics (Black Flag, Minor Threat, Sick of it All, Madball, etc.).

They really need to come up with another name for the "modern" hardcore kids to avoid all of this "blanket labeling" as you called it.

"Modern" hardcore kids still listen to hardcore.
That is my point.
What I'm trying to say is that what a lot of you guys into metal consider to be a "hardcore kid" isn't what a hardcore kid is.
I guess that wasn't clear.

Nah, I wasn't referring to the almost but not quite metal bands...I was talking about bands who I've seen and witnessed this happening. Stuff like The Chariot, Norma Jean, Underoath w/the old singer, Blood Brothers, etc. They might not fit the strictest definition of "hardcore," but there is no denying that their roots are there. I don't know of anyone who would consider them to be metal.

It's like the whole emo argument. Sure, Antioch Arrow, Fugazi, Moss Icon, Rites of Spring, and all those other bands were the "original" emo. But the definition has changed with the times.

Callign that shit hardcore is like calling Korn metal. It just isn't.

Just out of curiosity, what would it be called?

Hardcore now isn't the same as hardcore 25 years ago. No genre now is the same as it was 25 years ago. If it were, the genre would have remained stagnant and died off. Yes, there are still bands who play the more "traditional" hardcore sound, but the "traditional" sound isn't the only type of hardcore around anymore.

Just look at ska. You look at the first wave, "traditional" era, and you have bands like Bob Marley and the Wailers and Desmond Dekker. Then you look at the third wave and bands like Mighty Mighty Bosstones, Streetlight Manifesto, etc, and really the only thing they have in common is the use of a brass section. The genre has evolved with the times. The same thing has happened with hardcore.

IMO, saying all these bands aren't hardcore because they don't sound like Black Flag is like saying that At the Gates isn't metal because they don't sound like Black Sabbath.

Well what would you call Korn? I say pop/hard rock.

Shit like Avenged Sevenfold, Unearth, As I lay Dying, etc etc isn't hardcore. I don't know what to call it, but I would call Unearth and the like metal. Bad metal with breakdowns, but still metal. I think hardcore dudes call that shit metal and metal dudes call it hardcore. haha

Maybe it's time for a new separate genre called "horrible music."

For Korn, I would say that their older stuff is nu-metal, but they're pretty much a straight forward hard rock band now.

I'd call stuff like Unearth, A7X's old material, AILD, and all those other bands metalcore. They take their love for the Gothenburg sound and mix it with hardcore. For those type of bands, I can definitely hear a metal influence. But as for the other bands I'm talking about, I really don't hear a metal influence at all.

But I completely agree that it's time for a new genre, haha.

[TheKshatriya]

Brian, shut up. You dont know what youre talking about. You dont know anything about hardcore today. Im not getting mad saying hardcore is cooler than you so dont take it like that. Im just saying you dont know what youre talking about.

Those metalcore bands roots are just as much in hardcore as metal. What most people into metal dont get is that you can be the heaviest hardcore bands (Integrity, Blacklisted, Rise and Fall) which sound nothing like "classic" hardcore bands but it doesnt matter because they have the same mentality and work ethic, which makes hardcore more less about the actual music and make it more. Not saying metal is anything less but there is a rock star attitude that isnt there in hardcore and those shitty metalcore bands all want to be rock stars.

Its just as offinsive to call shitty metalcore bands hardcore as it is real metal.

Anyone who goes to any kind of heavy show and complains about getting hurt even if some kid is trying to seriously hurt people is a complete retard. Its not really possible to get seriously hurt at a show unless you get stabbed or something. Quit being pussies. Get stabbed.

[BlazeTSU]

bands like the chariot, norma jean and underoath are far from actually being rooted in hardcore.

i know all those guys and they are firmly rooted in shit like the deftones, korn, 311.....etc... along with bands like helmet, the melvins and nirvana. and underoath is just a plain big pile of reeking asstrash. they are rooted in not having an ounce of integrity and just following whatever the flavor of the month is.

not close to hardcore or metal.


same with bands like unearth, as i lay dying..........etc.....shitty shitty....etc.. they aren't even close to actually being metal or hardcore either. just because they have long hair and playing some fast melodic shit doesn't make them metal and just b/c they have breakdowns doesn't make them hardcore. and they can't be "metal with breakdowns" b/c metal has always had breakdowns.....all the way back to BLACK SABBATH.

i call bands like that the next generation of nu-metal. the music is different but the attitude is the same.......get rich quick!

[Metalfreak]

Anyone who goes to any kind of heavy show and complains about getting hurt even if some kid is trying to seriously hurt people is a complete retard. Its not really possible to get seriously hurt at a show unless you get stabbed or something. Quit being pussies. Get stabbed.

nah I've seen crowd surfers get seriously injured because they fell down. I've fallen down while doing that before but I got lucky and didn't get hurt. And people who stage dive...that's dangerous as well! I've seen people get pulled out on stretchers because of all this shit. And doing these activities are voluntary.

I don't think the people who complain about getting hurt by someone who was deliberately hurting them are the retards, I think the ones inflicting the pain are the retards. They are asking for an ass-kicking, that's why!

This normally doesn't apply to the pit, anyone getting seriously hurt there is usually caused by an accident... elbows flying, fists flailing, bodies slamming, it's bound to happen. Even I've given someone a nasty ass nose bleed at a Morbid Angel show once but we both knew it was an accident so there was no animosity.

[Brian]

Brian, shut up. You dont know what youre talking about. You dont know anything about hardcore today. Im not getting mad saying hardcore is cooler than you so dont take it like that. Im just saying you dont know what youre talking about.

Those metalcore bands roots are just as much in hardcore as metal. What most people into metal dont get is that you can be the heaviest hardcore bands (Integrity, Blacklisted, Rise and Fall) which sound nothing like "classic" hardcore bands but it doesnt matter because they have the same mentality and work ethic, which makes hardcore more less about the actual music and make it more. Not saying metal is anything less but there is a rock star attitude that isnt there in hardcore and those shitty metalcore bands all want to be rock stars.

Its just as offinsive to call shitty metalcore bands hardcore as it is real metal.

Anyone who goes to any kind of heavy show and complains about getting hurt even if some kid is trying to seriously hurt people is a complete retard. Its not really possible to get seriously hurt at a show unless you get stabbed or something. Quit being pussies. Get stabbed.

Don't worry, I don't take stuff like this personally. BUT, just because I might be misinformed about one aspect of hardcore doesn't mean that I lack any knowledge on the subject. Back in high school I was big into bands like Ampere, Heroin, Orchid, Amanda Woodward, etc. I really don't think that anybody would debate that they aren't hardcore at all.

I don't know, whenever I try to classify bands into genres, I don't think about the members' personal beliefs and work ethics. I think about, you know, what the music sounds like. After all, metal band people might have "rockstar" attitudes, but they damn well know that there is very little money to be made in the business. It comes with the territory.

I don't think anybody was complaining about getting hurt. I'm not some anti-mosh anti-crowd surfing pussy. I like metal shows to have energy, and pits DO bring energy to shows. What I do have a problem with is people who try to hurt me when I obviously don't want to be in the pit. If somebody punches me in the back of the head, I am going to be mad. Nobody has the right to go out and inflict mindless violence upon people who obviously don't want that just because there is heavy music playing.

[Brian]

bands like the chariot, norma jean and underoath are far from actually being rooted in hardcore.

i know all those guys and they are firmly rooted in shit like the deftones, korn, 311.....etc... along with bands like helmet, the melvins and nirvana. and underoath is just a plain big pile of reeking asstrash. they are rooted in not having an ounce of integrity and just following whatever the flavor of the month is.

not close to hardcore or metal.


same with bands like unearth, as i lay dying..........etc.....shitty shitty....etc.. they aren't even close to actually being metal or hardcore either. just because they have long hair and playing some fast melodic shit doesn't make them metal and just b/c they have breakdowns doesn't make them hardcore. and they can't be "metal with breakdowns" b/c metal has always had breakdowns.....all the way back to BLACK SABBATH.

i call bands like that the next generation of nu-metal. the music is different but the attitude is the same.......get rich quick!

Fair enough. To be completely honest, I've only heard Norma Jean's first album. I went back and listened to their most recent, and it's kind of embarrassing that I called them hardcore.

[Metalfreak]

I don't think anybody was complaining about getting hurt. I'm not some anti-mosh anti-crowd surfing pussy. I like metal shows to have energy, and pits DO bring energy to shows. What I do have a problem with is people who try to hurt me when I obviously don't want to be in the pit. If somebody punches me in the back of the head, I am going to be mad. Nobody has the right to go out and inflict mindless violence upon people who obviously don't want that just because there is heavy music playing.

exactly!

[ScreamBloodyGore]

Did you ignoramuses know that metal is better than hardcore?

Seriously, it is. God told me.

[Matt]

this thread is turning into a cry fest.......toilet please???

[Brian]

My bad, I didn't know that musical debate and a "cry fest" are the same thing.

[Knucklehead]

Did you ignoramuses know that metal is better than hardcore?

Seriously, it is. God told me.

Heehee.